Episode 1: Global Social Work: Grief, Climate Change, and Community Collaboration

Lynn Michalopoulos: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Social Work Is Everywhere podcast, where we uncover the powerful, diverse, and far reaching impact of social work across the globe.

David Robertson: Each episode we spotlight the practice, research and experience of students and social workers from a wide range of industries and professions in clinical care to policy change.

From leadership to grassroots advocacy and community engagement. Social work is truly everywhere

Lynn Michalopoulos: through the voices of the University of Maryland School of Social work community, including faculty, staff, students, alumni, and global partners. We'll explore unique perspectives and innovative initiatives shaping the future of the field.

We are your host, Dr. Lynn Murphy Michalopoulos,

David Robertson: David Robertson.

Lynn Michalopoulos: Today we are interviewing Thomas Northrop and David Robertson. So welcome to you both to the podcast. If we can get started here, let's have just a quick introduction.

David Robertson: I'm now, officially a second year PhD student in social work. My focus is social impact, grief informed and trauma informed [00:01:00] practice and technology focusing on the global scholars.

I really focused on my global grief work, which I'll talk about in a little bit.

Thomas Northrup: Great. Thank you. And Thomas. Thanks. I'm Thomas Northrop. I am entering my second year in the Master's program. My concentration is leadership policy and social change. So the Global Scholars Program is sending me to support Japan for the International Association of Group Psychotherapy and group processes, conference on groups and global crises.

So I get to present a workshop there and schmooze the group. Crises people.

Lynn Michalopoulos: Great. That's awesome. Thank you. Thank you both. David, let's start with you, but I'd love for both of you to answer this question. What drew you to the Provost Global Scholar Program and how did your social work lens guide your project design?

David Robertson: I knew in my beginning of my PC program that I wanted to focus around global aspects of grief and trauma-informed care, and so opening up my email and looking at the Elm, I was like, whoa. This is something that I should apply for. Yeah, that was the [00:02:00] initial thing that I just remember was getting out my email and finding that Elm and that really kind of putting me into a bunny trail.

So I didn't know that this opportunity was available. I didn't know that the provost had their own specific claims for this, and so it was exciting when I first saw that.

Lynn Michalopoulos: So that's a great plug for current students that may be interested in global initiatives to read the Elm. Thomas, what about

Thomas Northrup: you? For me, when I heard about it and was recommended to apply, the international collaboration piece is so critical to me because I'm interested in climate change, which obviously is an international issue and requires global collaboration to be able to even begin to respond to.

And then the conference itself has this theme of groups and crises. How do those things go together? So as far as the social work lens goes, I just think about person and and environment. You know, climate change is affecting us on many different levels. From our individual mental health to our communities, to just like, our city's gonna be, you know, flooded with water.

You know, with climate change. I almost think [00:03:00] about this idea that something, if something is gonna be sustainable, it needs, we need to have people continuing to collaborate in order to continue to take care of and address the issues that climate change poses in the long term.

You know?

Lynn Michalopoulos: Right. That's a great point to make. And just thinking about some of the challenges that we're facing globally now that it takes partnerships and it can't just be, can't just be one country saying, okay we'll address it because. No one else does. Then we'll all sink. So David, you're working on a grief informed caregiver support in partnership with Make-A-Wish.

Norwich, what inspired that international collaboration?

David Robertson: I was super privileged to have an opportunity a few years ago to be a contributor and a presenter at the Oslo Innovation Technology Week and had a relationship with a few community based organizations and one was Make-A-Wish Norwich. Uh, what I really found that was drew me to be more connected and to really wanna be more engaged was that they had a really [00:04:00] tight-knit team that was doing a lot of great impactful work from a small lens.

And so understanding from the CEO. I met her as a volunteer. Right? And so that immediately drew my connection to this is a CEO navigating such amazing programming. But I met her in a volunteer space. And so that a, was, was the most immediate connection I saw her in a, in the role of social worker per se, right.

No title but all service, which is to me was really powerful. I was then offered an opportunity to do a brief informed training to their leadership and staff through a training a few months later, which really reengaged the aspect of post pandemic trainings that a lot of staff, community based organizations, medical staff should be having on a regular, a lot of participants in clinical space and community spaces.

Have not yet processed the grief that they've experienced during the pandemic. So really reengaging and helping individuals have a better emotional quotient and verbiage. [00:05:00] That was how we, we began the conversation when that opportunity came to see that there was an opportunity to then forge a bridge between university

and community I just thought it would be an opportunity. I reached out to the CEO and that was really how we began the conversation of you being a part of caregiving support to families. How can we work together to bring different minds together to talk about local resources. That can support the local families dealing with grief and not just death, right?

The loss of culture for those who are immigrant and refugee families, the loss of family and connection. And so really helping redefine what grief is to really help these families have a better connection. So that's again, one of the most humbling opportunities is to help redefine what grief is to families and communities on a global and local scale.

Lynn Michalopoulos: That's great. I mean, I think also about how that model and way of thinking could be, you know, you could have some lessons learned that you could bring back [00:06:00] to Baltimore, you know, and thinking about how we engage with the community that is surrounding UMB. Um, definitely. That's really important. Yeah. So along those same lines, how, how are you weaving in culturally grounded community led approaches and what lessons are emerging about

grief support across borders.

David Robertson: Yeah, so I, first, I'm super excited for Thomas to talk about his stuff because I just came back from Japan and just, yeah, and the climate aspect is you're, you're spot on. Because they had to change a lot of cultural data celebration to the end of the summer because of climate change.

And so, and this, this was specifically a conversation that we had in Wakabadi in near Tokyo Pacifically Heat. Yes. Okay. So it was, it would, it was, it's just so hot that it was impossible they even had to change certain pollings. The later in the, in the fall, because where they would have the pollings for the different things in the community, it would be too hot to have the people in theses.

Going back to your question about this, culturally grounded, I haven't done the [00:07:00] Norway yet, but I am still really fresh with the importance of culturally weaving in what does grief care look like from a global perspective, not just from a Western perspective. So, you know, as I'm thinking about this, I'm learning that it's the same verbiage, but it's really asking people to define it

from not only the definition, but also practice because, and also who is a part of the support team of the grief care. Right? Example, grief Care in America is connected through a few spaces that we all know social workers, doctors, like this bandwidth I recently learned in Japan. That's a little bit different.

It's more of the nurses who are supporting the grief care work and, and that's, yeah. And the social work aspect is a really unique space because. It's really only connected to some of the private, uh, long-term care facility. Mm-hmm. And then also to some of the religious based hospitals like the St. Luke Hospital in [00:08:00] Japan.

So thinking about how this is translating, I'm curious, and this is why I'm excited about this global opportunity to listen deeply to the community in Oslo to ask what are the specific practices? Because we have Norwegian people in America and they may need the services too. And how do we be, how do we create the global citizen language to support all people knowing that by 2050 we're gonna have a greater number of individuals who are over 65.

Lynn Michalopoulos: I think that's really important to consider. What do we know? What is the language about grief? And also, as you mentioned, like bringing some of the ground up of, you know, it may look but different in different contexts and being open to that to inform practice. Yeah, I think that's a great segue to talk a little bit to you, Thomas.

So your project looks at psychodrama as the method for climate change and disaster response. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Thomas Northrup: Yes. So before I make the connection and how I see the connect between them, let me just kind of explain a bit about what psychodrama is. That'd be great. A brief background is that [00:09:00] psychodrama.

Emerged in response to individual psychoanalytic therapy in the early 20th century. So rather than lying down and just reassociating, it's embodied and it takes what's abstract from the there and then and makes it concrete in the here and now. And we make it concrete with guided role plays largely other ways too.

But if you think about an issue, a challenge that you're having in all of the different things that. People that are related to it, things that come up with it, anxieties you might have with it. If we're concretizing those and people are roleplaying those different elements, person whose problem it is or their community whose problem it is, gets to see it from a new perspective.

We're no longer talking about it. We're actually experiencing it. And we get to overcoming whatever challenge is there in a low stakes situation. So this is a role play so we can try out a bunch of different things, right? Not just talk about them actually experience what it might feel like to do it, but you know, have it [00:10:00] piece and then

Lynn Michalopoulos: you get a sense of different responses potentially.

Thomas Northrup: Correct. Yeah, exactly. So we can, you know, roll, reverse, you know, what's the worst case scenario, let's play it all the way out and see what happens when we do it again. Something like that, you know, in addition to having that perspective and that practice. Psychodrama is really concerned with strengthening social ties and community ties as a resource for the people who are in the psychodrama, for the participants, whatever.

And then also with psychodrama is concerned with increasing and enhancing spontaneity, which the founder of Psychodrama J. L. Moreno, defined as a new response to an old situation or an adequate response. To a new situation.

Lynn Michalopoulos: Okay.

Thomas Northrup: This idea of can we have an adequate response to a new situation With climate change, we're constantly being bombarded with challenges, new challenges, that all we need to do is have an adequate response to Sometimes we're thinking we need to have the perfect response and then we do nothing.

Or there are old problems. You know, like extreme heat for example, we'd had hot days, but maybe our responses to [00:11:00] that, to those hot days are not so great. Or they, they, a lot of people end up getting injured or something like that. And so we're thinking also how do we have a, how do we come up with a new response?

How can we practice? Playing out that month. So we're cultivating skills and empowering people. So I guess just generally that's, that's how I see those connections between what psycho drama tries to do and then bridging over to climate change and challenges it poses.

Lynn Michalopoulos: I think that's really exciting. I think about all the focus on trauma response and psychodrama I think is a really, really cool thing to think about, especially with the embodiment piece because there is so much, there's so much growing literature and research on trauma within the body.

I think that's really cool. What are some of the real world, like the implications of some of this work?

Thomas Northrup: Yeah, so I can talk about. Some of my own particular stuff that I'm doing over the summer, but also just stuff that is happening abroad. When we're talking about climate change, for example, I just read an article about using psychodrama to help people with PTSD elementary schoolers in [00:12:00] response to an earthquake in Iran.

It showed that it had high reduced efficacy. Yeah, it was, yeah. That's really awesome. Yeah. Yeah. It helped them to be able to cope. There are these specific mental health issues and, and wellness issues that come up because of shared climate disasters and, and just any kind of like shared trauma. But then there are also some community empowerment things that have come from psychodrama.

Earlier in the 20th century, there where basically the experiments were just, how do we organize people? How do we give people the power to organize themselves?

David Robertson: Right?

Thomas Northrup: What is the result of that? Well, the result is when people have more control over where they are. And how they can be and you know, their schedules and things like that.

They're happier at better health.

Lynn Michalopoulos: You've talked about this a bit with the study that you were just mentioning. Yeah. Do you think it could be used and applied with displaced populations or post-disaster communities and global context? Yeah, you, I would add to that. Like what things do you think we would need to consider?

Thomas Northrup: Yeah. So some of those examples I think do kind of speak to a bit to like the different sorts of communities. I can speak to what I'm trying to [00:13:00] research this summer and I think, okay. Be like a little bit more concrete. So I'm working through the Climate Health and Resilience internship. I have a project related to extreme heat and responses to extreme heat in elderly populations in Baltimore City.

Extreme heat is an equity issue.

Lynn Michalopoulos: Air conditioning.

Thomas Northrup: Air conditioning for one, but also just like neighborhoods in Baltimore with less shade.

Lynn Michalopoulos: Oh, interesting. I didn't even ask. Or

Thomas Northrup: neighborhoods or, they tend to be neighborhoods that are historically black and the black butterfly. There are a lot more neighborhoods with a higher heat so elderly people are a socially vulnerable population because they don't, they tend to have fewer social resources, like social connections and social isolation, but then they're also biological.

Factors that they have, you know, like less sweat production, queuing for for thirst, things like that make it, I didn't realize that decreases

Lynn Michalopoulos: with age.

Thomas Northrup: Yeah. So the, so this is just things like this that make it hard, weathering, adapt. Exactly. The weathering adapting to extreme heat. So, so my, my project is like, how can we bring people.

Together to [00:14:00] improve spontaneity in response to these, these events. So maybe you know all of these things, but you haven't had a practice, an opportunity to practice in community responding, you know? Oh, the. Water's not coming or the power went out so there's no air conditioning.

Now what do we do? Where do we go? And making friends and making it kind of social as people are solving the problems is giving power to the community rather than just saying, here's what you do, X, Y, and Z. Here's this pamphlet that tells you what to do. Right? There's an element that I'm interested in, like, can we build spontaneity while giving information about something?

To, to how people, you know, overcome kind of a problem. So I think the answer is yes. The model can used, you know, in many different ways when we're talking about person and environment, or we're talking about health and wellness generally, right? And we do the mental health stuff in response related to, you know.

PTSD or trauma, the flooding. Can we use it for community organizing so that people who aren't talking to each other can talk about how we're gonna mitigate the [00:15:00] flooding? Yeah. Yes. Also, yeah. You know, getting more people at the same table.

Lynn Michalopoulos: That's really exciting. I mean, I think about some of the work that I do in, in Zambia and thinking about, I mean, you're, you're gonna help us with this project looking with labor migrants and, climate change, in Gambia and thinking about how.

This model could, like, you know, we think about the CDC has the one health model of like animal health, environmental health and or climate health or, or environmental health, I guess would be environmental health, and human health and how those intertwine, you know, even thinking about COVID and how it was all a part, a part of it, and it it, if we don't do things.

Together as a globe and you know, it, it's not gonna get better. So I think that these practices and community building, like if there's more and more communities building out, then I think things there can be changed. I wanted to ask, you know, either of you can answer, but, and both of you have spoken, about this, but in different ways, but how your projects connect to larger social work values, justice, dignity,

Thomas Northrup: sustainability.

I can just say, so one of the, the social work principles is the value of human [00:16:00] relationships, something like that. That's critical in my work is that, yeah, the relationship itself, this is explicit, is a social resource. It's not doing it in isolation. I want to be working with groups because the healing is gonna be happening in groups, so I know that also, obviously grief doesn't happen in isolation, so David.

Yeah.

David Robertson: No, it's a, it's the same. I truly honor the auto perspective of uplifting the stories of those who are living it and leveraging that through the qualitative perspective. I think that, again, making sure that they see their, their stories as empirical data as well. Right. Yeah. You know, making sure that we remind that this stage is also yours.

Because it's your story. Yeah.

Lynn Michalopoulos: That's, that's key. That's really, really important. How has this work shaped your thinking about your future role in global or community-based work?

David Robertson: I'll say I am learning that based on the way the world is, as the world turns. I'm finding it critical to [00:17:00] engage with the conversation of grief informed and trauma informed from a more of a, a community space where I am enabling people through approaches of a trained professional to say, here's some language that, that now we all have an agreement.

What are different ways that you're able to replicate this dinner, this lunch? So that now those who may not have been in this, in this round table to have this conversation, how do we now share this language? How do we get people to give their input? How do we extend this opportunity?

Can there be a second round table? Can we bring in more people? Can you refer people? I think that it. Understanding that grief is now being transformed into a more theorized experience. I am hopeful that this will also translate into people really making room for grief informed conversations, because that's what grief is asking for Faith.

Right, the [00:18:00] process.

Right. Yeah.

David Robertson: You know, it's not really asking for your opinion, it's asking for a space. Right? Right. And maybe I'm thirsty, so fill me up with something to drink and maybe after all this talking about my loss, I'm hungry. Right. Fill me up. But you know, don't give me your opinion about Right.

And so, you know, giving people tangible ways. To stay, and to put that caveat to it, I also believe that it has the possibility to expose what loneliness is globally and locally. Mm-hmm. Because a shared conversation now opens up to, this is no longer an isolating conversation I'm, I'm having as a community leader, as a researcher, as a caregiver, as a participant.

And so my hope is that this opportunity that I have been privileged to participate in as a scholar isn't Amber. Right. It's an amber to create bigger moments so people can be enlightened because grief is not going anywhere. Right. Uh, I think it, it's being more exposed. Yeah. But to even, um, I'm over here.

My, my, my brain is such a researcher. I'm [00:19:00] like, but how this work is so good Because when you think about climate change, and it's like people don't want to engage. Based on the season, and it's like, oh wow. And it's, it's also rich. So I'm grateful for this conversation and even for this collaborative like notion of what social workers are doing, that it's, it's really the collaboration is important to talk about.

Thomas Northrup: I'm getting inspired and I'm like, I'm glad that somebody's working with, with grief. I mean, just this idea that like not only do we need collaborations within our specific fields and then the communities that they Yeah. Act in. In that, but also just like the knowledge that like I don't have to do everything related to social work and health or whatever, because here the three of us are all doing social work in similar and different ways, right?

Like that netting feels really good.

Lynn Michalopoulos: Yeah. David, I did wanna ask you for my sake, and also listeners may have the question, but when you talk about grief, is it along a continuum? You know, grieving the loss of a relationship, grieving the loss of a loved one? Yeah. Even grieving the [00:20:00] loss of, you know, I think about trauma survivors, like experiencing, like childhood abuse, grieving the life that you could have had if, if things.

Would not have happened. Yeah. So is it along a continuum?

David Robertson: Yes. Where I am at a researcher is it's really asking people to define it for where they're at in their current state in life. Right. I have asked a peer, what does grief mean to you right now? And and she specifically said, it is me navigating perimenopause.

And recognizing that I am grieving, not the knowing of, you know, of, of many things, things, different things happening to me right now. Different. Yeah. And grieving the fact that there are a lot of people don't have the capacity or the expertise to help me. Like I'm grieving that loss to know that I'm doing this by myself.

Right. Uh, again, like I know I, I say it over and over again, but I'm honored and privileged to say that I am learning. As I go on, how to help people define grief, because how we've been defining grief as it's has to be anger. It has to be this, that particular grief factor came from hospice, right? And so, you know, [00:21:00] right.

I'm being very careful that as a researcher and as a social worker, I am learning to open it up and just say, I am currently talking about grief from an individual storytelling perspective because it's so rich and it's so at the topical of a lot of people's experience, someone said to me, you know, my grief is like a pimple.

It like wants to be bursted. And you know, and it was, you know, but there's a lot of people, even though your mother says, don't do it because they will leave us. Don't do it. Yeah. Yeah. But a lot of people are really tender and I am learning. To be really cautious about defining grief from many perspectives and really just saying, how is grief showing up for you somatically?

Or how has grief showing up for you in general? And then there, yeah, and then that open ended is like, wait, grief, like I spend a lot in grief. And that's when I just affirmed. Thank you for even having the bandwidth to talk about that. Right. And so, yeah, I'm sitting in the place of humility and saying that I'm trying to figure out the method to support, but right now [00:22:00] it's just through asking and being reflexive and seeing patterns.

Lynn Michalopoulos: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's really important. I, I, I'm reminded of. Um, for the listeners, um, both David and Thomas and, and I are where the three of us are on a, a paper that is coming out that was just accepted in the European Journal of Traumatology. It's based on looking at developing a trauma scale among caregivers of children living with HIV in Uganda.

And one of the things that we talked about in the paper was that there has been this movement within the field thinking about the DSM five because the DSM five defines. PTSD as having the first criteria is the traumatic event. The traumatic event is like this pretty narrow set of things that can happen.

And so thinking about like, is caregiving a child, uh, living with HIV, is that traumatic or is it not traumatic? And so there's been this movement of let's just get rid of that whole thing. It doesn't make sense because it's about what the meaning is. Just exactly what you're saying. It's about the meaning, it's about the symptoms.

It's not about, you can't tell [00:23:00] me what's gonna make me feel symptoms and what's not. There are two people that may experience as you, I think it was in an earthquake, Thomas, that you're saying with that study. Yeah. Some children may be totally unbothered and others may really, really suffer, and so we can't, we really have to look at the experience as, as you were both saying.

So I think that's, that's really cool. So let's, I would love to get from either of you or both of you, sorry. If an, if another social work student was considering this program, what would you tell them? And this program, meaning the Global Scholars Program.

Thomas Northrup: So I would say tying in a little bit from the last answer is like, absolutely go for it.

Because my thinking has just been shaped by applying. I haven't yet carried out the project that I applied for, right? But having to put on paper, you know, the spark of my idea and realized all of the ways that I hadn't made the abstract concrete, and now have to continue making it concrete in preparation for going.

I'm gonna get there. I'm like thinking like, do I need business cards to like exchange, you know, like right steps. You're not gonna get to thinking about those steps until you actually apply. [00:24:00] So if you have an idea that involves international collaboration or just any kind of collaboration and sustained action on that, this is, this is a wonderful opportunity and a source of funding for you to be able to begin to make sense of what that might mean and figure out whether this is something that.

You can pursue for career, it's worth defining for yourself.

Lynn Michalopoulos: What's next for, for you, David? Um, and how are you hoping to build upon this experience?

David Robertson: Yeah. Uh, just, uh, I have it, you know, I've applied same method as Thomas shared.

Literally, it's taking the invisible and making it tangible. And now following the process through, we are working on doing this round table in the late fall, and we realize that it may be important to support, again, this climate aspect. It may be important to support families. The community, not in the summertime where people are a little bit more stimulated to do personal things, but to really focus on, [00:25:00] you know, after people are back settled into their normal routines.

As the seasons changed, what are some of the true needs that are no longer overlooked? Because we've got a lot of summer plans and so I am super excited to initiate this opportunity mid-fall and then really see how this can be a building opportunity. You know, I think about the University of Maryland being an anchor institution.

So I think about how, how do we bring back, how can I bring back rich data and information to see how do we then create these opportunities so that they're just not one off. And so to really begin the conversation because it's critical. 'cause we're global citizens at the end of the

Lynn Michalopoulos: day. Right, exactly.

That's well said. Thomas, what about you?

Thomas Northrup: So this summer was actually really an alive time for me because I'm working on the research project I mentioned about using psychodrama to improve people's spontaneous responses to extreme [00:26:00] heat here in Baltimore, so I'll carry out as much of that research as I can.

I'm also in kind of collaboration with that I'm on Wednesdays and Thursday mornings in the School of social work. I'm hosting problem solving groups related to spontaneity. I'm doing these things. So there's the practice element and then we'll see what happens when I deliver this workshop on developing this model for psychodrama for. Enhancing community responses to climate events and climate change. I really, I was kind of joking about the business card thing, but also not like this will be my first exposure to people who are working with groups in global crises.

It's a triennial I. Conference. So like I'm trying to meet a lot of people and see what collaborations can occur to either expand the research that I'm doing or have them expand the research that they're doing here in Baltimore. So I feel like it's collaboration. My next step is collaboration and I think that it's hard to define what will happen because we don't know what skills and resources and ideas

our [00:27:00] collaborators will come with. Great.

David Robertson: Just a plug. Now I was gonna say, just a plug. So if you're not aware, Thomas, that, and I just became aware of this too, that Japan and Maryland have a sister relationship to the governor. Okay. Yeah. And so, uh, I. I am learning through, even through our institution, we just had a, had a new connection between the University of St.

Maryanna, which is a medical school and uh, the University of Maryland, Baltimore, but it's a bigger macro relationship between Japan and Maryland that I would encourage you as you're fostering these relationships specifically around climate. It's to really think about the institutional relationship, but then also the governor's relationship because it's a powerful partnership that I'm learning that Maryland and Japan have, and I would be curious to how they will wanna help continue these relationships around research and collaboration.

Lynn Michalopoulos: Thank you both so much for your time and, and energy and I, I learned a ton and hopefully folks out there learned as well. And it's great to have these conversations because you pick up things like, oh, I didn't. [00:28:00] We talk to each other, we help each other. We build each other up. So I firmly believe that.

So we are ending this episode. Just want to say thank you for listening to the Social Work Everywhere podcast. If you've been inspired by the stories and impact shared today, please consider supporting the University of Maryland School of Social Work. Your donation will help fund scholarships, research, innovative teaching, and community partnerships that really make a difference.

David Robertson: Every gift matters. Visit ssw dot u maryland.edu/give To donate today, please choose other and specify Global.

Lynn Michalopoulos: And to request more information about admissions to the university of Maryland School of Social Work, please visit ssw dot u maryland.edu/msw. Thank you. Bye for now.​

Thomas Northrup has maintained an interest in how people collaborate and resolve shared problems in his academic and professional life. This year, he enters his advanced year as a master’s student in the School of Social Work’s Leadership, Policy, & Social Change concentration. His decision to re-enter school occurred after six years’ teaching showed him that public schools are not the bastions for facilitating lasting social change he once dreamed they were. As a Kindergarten teacher, Thomas explicitly taught collaboration and (self-)advocacy. He infused his pedagogy with psychodrama and sociometry (group facilitation methods that emphasize practice through role play), which he began studying and practicing in 2018. Still, he was unsatisfied with the harsh limits imposed on him by standardized testing.