Episode 6: Moving Well Bringing Mental Health Support to Truck Drivers in Africa

Lynn Michalopoulos: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Social Work Is Everywhere podcast where we uncover the powerful, diverse, and far-reaching impact of social work across the globe. We are your host, Dr. Lynn Murphy Michalopoulos,  

David Robertson: David Robertson.  

Lynn Michalopoulos: Through the voices of the University of Maryland School of Social Work Community, we'll explore unique perspectives and innovative initiatives shaping the future of the field. 

David Robertson: Each episode, we spotlight the practice, research and experience of students and social workers from clinical care to policy change. Social work is truly everywhere. 

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Introduction and Welcome 

Lynn Michalopoulos: Today I am very excited to have two dear friends and colleagues, um, joining us today to talk about the Moving Well Project, um, mobile application. So we have Sabeen Ahmed and as well as Munsaka Mubela. 

Guest Introductions 

Lynn Michalopoulos: Um, so if you can just both briefly introduce yourselves and then we can talk about the app. So, Sabeen, you wanna get started?  

Sabine: Sure. My name is Sabeen and I am a licensed clinical social worker. I live in, I work in Los Angeles, work at [00:01:00] UCLA Health. I am a clinical oncology social worker, so I work with cancer patients and I've done a lot of work in working with community, um, mental health and men who have been, uh, in the criminal justice system. 

And yeah, that's, that's a little bit about me. Thank you, Munsaka.  

Munsaka: Is it good afternoon or good morning, depending on where one is otherwise? My name is Munsaka Mubela. I'm I'm a Zambian and I, I work for Truck Drivers Association. Of course, in this aspect is under the project, uh, that is run by. Uh, MWP, which is partnered with the Truck Drivers Association or under a small wing of mobile and lives Zambia that is now, that fosters any healthy activities. 

Otherwise, I am the coordinator [00:02:00] and I've been with the Truck Drivers Association, or rather the mobile population actually for the past 15 years. Uh, trying to, uh, trying to to help look at the welfare of the drivers mm-hmm. As well as their partners. Briefly, this is how, this is the Munsaka you are talking about. 

Lynn Michalopoulos: Yes. Thank you. Thank you both.  

History of the Moving Well Project 

Lynn Michalopoulos: Um, so as we get started, just wanna share a little bit with our listeners, um, about the the history of the Moving Well project, um, the mobile application. So I've partnered with, the International Organization for Migration and the Truck Drivers Association of Zambia and other key partners in Zambia to look at, um, the relationship between trauma, mental health and HIV risk among long distance truckers in Zambia. 

Um, so we've done a lot of qualitative work and from that I started doing this work in 2013, and I think that's when I met you, Munsaka. And we [00:03:00] worked together to do a qualitative study to understand the, kind of the stressors that the truckers experienced, um, and how that potentially was related to HIV risk. 

Um, we then conducted a, a quantitative study and we were able to interview truck drivers. From Zambia, Zimbabwe, DRC and I think that's it and Tanzania, um, as well and, and really look at that relationship as well. Um, and so, we found that there was a clear relationship between trauma and HIV risk, and so we were, um, interested in. 

Talk to multiple partners to see what can we do to actually kind of reduce the risk and address some of the health and mental health problems within this community.  

Development of the Mobile Application 

Lynn Michalopoulos: Um, and that was kind of the development of the mobile application. Obviously, working with labor migrants specifically, long distance truckers, you can't do. 

In person group sessions or in individual sessions over a long [00:04:00] period of time. And so we really wanted to be able to address the needs through something that was, was mobile. And so why don't we pause here. 

Hi gracious. Do a brief introduction and then we can, and then we'll go back and then just, just like, just kind of your background 

Gracious : uh, my name's Gracious Witola and um, I'm a social scientist. 

I've been working in public health research for over five years. Worked on several studies. Stigma studies, mental health. I'm very passionate actually about, uh, sexual reproductive health and rights and, uh, mental health and, uh, stigma. I've also worked on some COVID studies and, uh, TB as well. So I think that's what draws me to this study because I'm so passionate about, mental health. And when I was told, oh, there's a mental health study, I was so excited about it because I'm so passionate about it. And you know, just the fact [00:05:00] that men were involved with mental health, like in Africa, coming from an African country, it's something that's kind of like, looked down upon if a man complains about how they're feeling, their emotions and the like. 

So it was just something interesting to be a part of something like this. Yeah. So, yeah, that's that. And um, yeah. Uh, hoping to continue pursuing my career in this, uh, line of mental health and stigma around, um, disease and the like, infectious diseases. Uh.  

Lynn Michalopoulos: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.  

Roles and Contributions 

Lynn Michalopoulos: Um, so it would be great to just hear from each of you on kind of your role within the, the development of the Movement Well Project app. 

And, and unfortunately we weren't able to have folks represented from the, the actual company that developed the, the app. Um, but we worked, we provided all the content and they, they then had. Consultant for, you know, drawing the pictures and doing the voiceovers. But they were essential to this project as well. 

So their VMO is [00:06:00] the, the name of the, the organization that provided that for us. So, why don't we get started with you, Sabeen, and talk a little bit about how you got involved with this project and, and your, your role specifically.  

Sabine: Yeah, so I had worked with Lynn on another project with female fish traders in Zambia, and we had worked on adapting a manual, a curriculum. 

So we used, I used a lot of that curriculum and I used that to write up the content for this app itself. So I wrote up about eight lessons altogether that were to be delivered to the truck drivers via videos over WhatsApp. Um, and they were intended to provide education about mental health, trauma, coping skills, HIV treatment and testing. 

Um, so my role primarily was to create the content for it, write, write up the curriculum, um, and. Edit it and just continuously do that to make it, uh, to make sure it's culturally relevant to truck [00:07:00] drivers. Um, which we needed the assistance of the local population. The truck drivers itself, of course, couldn't have done that without that. 

Lynn Michalopoulos: Yeah. And, and you, the, the modules that you developed, were they based on, they're based on kind of like in general evidence-based practices?  

Sabine: Yes. So we used, I used, um, a lot of, uh. Dialectical behavior therapy. Use that model a lot of CBT. Um, I also use a lot of your research in itself, um, about the, especially to direct it specifically to truck drivers, to see like what are some of the things, the issues that are coming up in the population. 

So using that and putting that in little parts of the curriculum, um, to make it also relevant to the population that it was intended for. So, and we, we added meditation and mindfulness. So we used that that that orientation as well. Yeah.  

Lynn Michalopoulos: And, and there was also the, um, uh, like behavioral activation of the time. 

Behavioral feels good, right? Yes. [00:08:00] Yes. Yeah.  

Munsaka: Yes.  

Lynn Michalopoulos: Awesome. Thank you. Yeah, it was, it was great being able to work with you and, and I mean, you just added so much to the, to the project in, in and of itself, so it was great working with you on it. Munsaka, can you talk a little bit about your role in the, the MWP. 

Munsaka: Well, thank you very much. Uh, or what I can say that I think in all areas I'm a coordinator. I'm coordinating Yes, yes, yes. In all areas. And, uh, what it is, is that. I think the gap was identified by Moving Well Project was identified that actually there's some certain information that actually is lacking, and let me just say there's a gap. 

Among the mobile population. And fortunately, fortunately, I found myself actually to be among those who do facilitate or rather coordinate. And hence I [00:09:00] just jumped onto this bandwagon to say, how can we help in? And when it came the, uh, that was somewhere in 2013 when the mobile. Moving Well, project started of course it started with the, the, the aspect of trauma as well as the mental health. 

Uh, now when the app was introduced, actually it was actually, it was as a result of those. What happened? The, the outcome of the, uh, the research that was conducted somewhere in 20 18, 20 14, hence they discovered actually that is a gap. And how do they come up with this gap? This gap was supposed to be bridged. 

The only way to bridge this gap was to find something that would find the drivers, whichever area they are, and hence, the app was developed actually with the, of course, [00:10:00] it came in as maybe, I would say it was a dream come true by the leaders. Of rather the management from Moving Well project, and that's how now others were co-opted in. 

Of course, truck Drivers Association was also coopted in and we brought in the vm, uh, that is the company that actually developed that. But the nitty grities was somehow, first of all, it was developed by the Moving Well Project, where actually. Uh, Dr. Lynn. I think those are the people who really facilitated. 

I always came in as just to say, how do we in a telemed aspect to say this language can suit the, the mobile population, something like that. And actually, if I say it really helped and at the end of the day, it really had an impact. This is what I can say on aspect [00:11:00] of. The development of this app by the Moving Well Project, we are part and parcel, and we will continue being part and parcel of that. 

Thank you.  

Thank you, thank you. Yeah. And, and Munsaka you were, you've been a key part of this project throughout the, the whole development, but, just the, the, the folks that you know and have connected. To like brought in to give feedback, um, on this project. Everybody from government officials to truck drivers, to truck drivers associations, unions. 

Um, you were very well connected to the community and have been. Without, without your, your help and facilitation and, and as you said, coordination, like as a coordinator, it would not have, it would not have happened. Um, so we are very grateful for, for you on this, this work. Gracious, can you talk a little bit about your, your role in the, the project? 

Gracious : Thank you, Lynn. Well, for me, actually, my role was like strongly tied to [00:12:00] Munsaka because I couldn't work without him.  

Munsaka: Yeah.  

Gracious : So he, uh, yeah, Munsaka and I went together at the truck companies looked at some, um. truckers. So amongst, uh, what we're doing was that we're measuring their eligibility, seeing if they're eligible. 

So were they able to speak English? Did they have a mobile phone because they had to, you know, uh, the app was operated on the phone and, uh, it was quite interesting to interact with them. So once they were, uh, we explained what the study was about, how it was working, and we got, uh, their consents. We had what we call, we had sessions. 

So in these sessions we really just spoke more about, uh, what they expected to what they, they, they, they will find in the app once the app is open and running on their phone. So we would explain to them about things such as trauma, because trauma was one of the modules there. They had mental health, we'll talk about HIV prevention services and the like, and I think that was so interesting to know [00:13:00] just. 

Discuss all this past some of the modules that, uh, Sabeen mentioned and yeah, once they understand that, would, um, put the link and install the app on their phone and, uh, show them how it works. And yeah, so that was part of my role with Munsaka.  

Challenges and Adaptations 

And can you talk a little bit about some of the, I mean, both of you had to, well, all of us had to make quite a few kind of pivots throughout the, the process. 

Yeah. Um, you know, originally we  

Munsaka: had,  

we had proposed that we would do an in-person session for like an hour to talk about the app, do like an overview, and then, and then they would take it and run with it. But that, that didn't work. Can you talk a little bit about some of the, the challenges and, and how, how you were able to address that? 

Gracious : Yeah, sure. So, because truckers, you know, as we all know, they're mobile, so they're kind of difficult to find. You know, it was so difficult to get them in one place and just have like a session. So when we went to the different tracking companies, we couldn't meet the, the numbers we [00:14:00] had planned for. So we had to become more creative. 

We formed WhatsApp groups and in there we would have like, some were, we had them via Zoom calls, some we had, uh, we used the WhatsApp voices, you know, like just an invoice notes explaining. And we, we created these platforms where we interact. And I think that worked. Actually, the ones that were recruited via platforms were actually. 

More than the ones we had in person. In person. And I thought that, yeah. And truckers who have been, you know, introduced on the WhatsApp groups that we had, we formed like three different WhatsApp groups and those groups, they would also invite others and that worked better. Like suggest someone at their company that we didn't meet when we went in person. 

Yeah. So that really worked. Yeah. And I think, uh. Future, like for future recommendations when not having the mobile the Moving Well project or something similar to it anyway, it's easier to recruit, uh, the truckers online.  

Yeah, yeah. That makes sense.  

Gracious : Yeah, and  

I mean, there were still some [00:15:00] challenges with that because weren't didn't, some truckers feel like, oh, is this a scam? 

Or you're trying to get money. Yeah,  

Gracious : actually that was like a challenge. Both in person and online  

and, okay.  

Gracious : Yeah, because of the link, the way they have to like, you know, install it on their phone. Some thought it's a scamming because in Zambia we have a lot of messages that we receive of scammers asking you to, maybe in insert a certain password or a certain link or everything. 

So they thought maybe would get, uh, their money. So there were those worries and some were like maybe. Thought we worked with the companies like the union. Okay. They had those challenges of thinking would get from their pay directly from their pay, but we had to, you know, just sensitize them and explain what we were doing. 

Despite the, the fears of us, assuming we worked with the companies like, uh, with the union, and maybe we wanted to get some of their money directly from their pay and the like, but after, you know, just explaining exactly, emphasizing what our study was all about, what we aimed to achieve. 

We [00:16:00] had good responses, but yes, those fears were there.  

Munsaka: Mm-hmm.  

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that. Please to like, really the, the emphasis of, of context is important and, and. Things that are within the environment or culture that you have to be aware of in terms of potential barriers. Sabeen, can you talk a little bit about, you know, the, we developed this manual for the fish traders based on, it was an evidence-based intervention. 

It's called Living in the Face of Trauma, which is a manualized group sessions, uh, that we had used for kind of the template for the the Fish Trader work. Um, but for the truckers. We kind of, you kind of revised or used the, that core information to make the modules. Can you talk about some of the challenges that you had with adapting that for like WhatsApp modules? 

Sabine: I think the biggest challenge was trying to keep it short and succinct. Yeah. Um, there's this, there was so much information to share. Um, and especially [00:17:00] in this like psychoeducation too. To people. So I think that was probably the biggest challenge was to make sure to still give a message that was important and could reach people, but still be simple and short. 

And part of it was also making the language really easy to understand. It's so easy to get clinical and have this jargon that's not very simple. Mm-hmm. Um, making it, that, that was also a challenge. Yeah, I, and I think also delivering it over a video and again, you like with having making sure that it was in something that would be. 

Yeah. Again, easy to understand for people.  

Right, right, right. Just straightforward and right. Yeah. Yeah,  

Sabine: yeah. Yeah. And culturally relevant as well. I think that was also something we wanted to make sure that we were using words and language, that that wouldn't make sense to the population it was intended for. 

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's why I think it was critical to have actual truckers. Go through and, and review the [00:18:00] information before we actually put it on the, the app. That was a,  

Sabine: that was, um, such an important part of the, the process. Yeah.  

Mm-hmm. Yeah.  

Dissemination and Future Plans 

Munsaka, can you talk a bit about you know, one of the, one of the most exciting parts of this whole project to me was the dissemination meeting at the end. 

Can you talk a little bit about, I mean, I was really blown away by the, the number of different people that were there, um, that were represented there. Can you talk a bit about all of those like the, the kind of key roles of people that you thought were important to be at the dissemination meeting and, and what kind of feedback we got? 

Munsaka: when you have such a big project and you expect. The orders to be present. And those are the ones that I didn't say qualifies as you or disqualifies as you. So in this [00:19:00] case, actually we were qualified because the people, um, uh, that came in, or rather the institution that were invited that came in, actually they came in numbers one, and they, those are the. 

We had the private and public, uh, sector. When I talk of public sector, I'm talking of the government institutions. Mm-hmm. Those that deal with the, uh, transportation as well as on the part of the mobility, they were there and they grace the occasion. Then when we talk of the private sector, private sectors, we are talking of the transporters themselves. 

As the transporters. Then we have civil societies. The civil society, are those the associations, the unions? Those are the ones that actually run the, the. The mobile, the mobile population aspect, they're the ones actually that they came with [00:20:00] numbers and they were really grateful. They were happy with the, all the outcome that had, uh, especially the presentation that actually doctor you presented, that was very good. 

'cause it was simple and straightforward to the point. And they were happy. They were not kept for the whole day. No. But at the end of the day. They all want to be part and parcel of vu, this moving project and this moving project, I feel it should continue because what it is, is that if it has the blessings from the public sector, which is the government, then it is something that has to stay. 

Mm-hmm. And you see with the support from the private sector. Like the way Grisha had earlier on alluded to say the management aspect they had actually, they gave us a go ahead. That you do what you've come for in the companies, but here comes to the beneficiary who is resistant to [00:21:00] say maybe it's a scam. 

But now when the management, after going through what we had introduced ourselves and to them they say, you go ahead. So to me, it really made that actually this. Project is there to stay because when the management says, yes, let's go ahead with this. The beneficiary is just supposed to be told to say, let's do this, let's do this. 

I think this is the way to go. In a nutshell what I'm saying, that the government has a will. Good will from the government because when you call upon them, they are there to help. When you call upon the private sector, they're there, including the youth as well as the associations that drives the, the, the mobile population that to support. 

So I think that is a. The way to go and it is good. The only challenge that actually that we had that like the way gracious had said was, now when you are being, when you are introducing that to the community, [00:22:00] that is where the starting point, that was a problem. Maybe suffice to say what eh, Sabeen had earlier on side when we were developing. 

The, uh, the app. Mm-hmm. Uh, putting the, the language that they would understand. It was really a challenge 'cause it took almost four months. Mm-hmm. Okay. Four months in, just to put fine tune that. I still remember actually we started somewhere in February. There. Just to put things straight, it was really hard. 

Then you also bring in, uh, the VMO people to come in to say, this is what we have. Can you translate it to the app? The way the condition, the app is supposed to be developed? Mm-hmm. It, I think it was really helped, but thank God at the end of the day, we managed to reach to each and everyone and the beneficiaries. 

They really appreciated, like the way Gracious has area own. Yeah.  

Lynn Michalopoulos: Yeah, I, I mean, I get it. You bring up a good point Munsaka in [00:23:00] terms of the challenges of research versus implementation and also dissemination and trying to make things sustainable. So, to me, I would love if we could just go to trucking companies and say, Hey, here's this app for truckers that they can use. 

However, we had a really small sample size, and so as a researcher, I think it's important to, for us to. Do like a randomized control trial to look at, you know, is this actually effective for for reducing mental health problems and, and reducing HIV. However that takes. A ton of time, like, and not even just if you have the money, but like, versus getting the money and then developing the content and then implementing, I mean, do you gracious, what do you, what are your thoughts in terms of like, research from the research point of view versus implementation and, and how do we kind of keep the ball rolling? 

Because, when months and months pass and it's kind of like people forget about it and then it, it gets kind of lost in the shuffle.[00:24:00]  

Gracious : Yeah, I think I agree with you. I think it would work better if we had something like a randomized control trial where would see if it really is effective and if it's working and like where would follow people at a point in time and just see how it's working. Mm-hmm. I think that. That would work. And I think the other thing I appreciated about our study is that it actually took a service to people. 

You know, like for the truckers, it's actually hard to find them and the fact that, and it's, they barely have time to get the health facilities, you know, it's also, not only are we like. Concerned about their mental health and everything, but we're giving them preventive strategies to use, like we're informing them, giving them information. 

And that also is kind of like also a prevention. It's on like if we are, if you have the information about something like how you'll not get HIV, what help. What are the preventive mechanisms? So it also plays a role in reducing, and I think I also agree with Munsaka, we'll need to, it'd be [00:25:00] great to have like an intervention, uh, study, but something that is monitored where we could see like, okay, is it effective? 

Really, how is our in intervention effective? Mm-hmm. And yeah, I know you said it takes time and a lot of work, but I think it's a work, work with it.  

Munsaka: Yeah,  

Gracious : because I also answered some questions. You know, you made a test run and everything and, uh, you know, it, I really learned a lot from it, but, and I think it'll be very effective mm-hmm. 

Given the type of population we're dealing with. A mobile app is the best app. Yeah. Yeah. So I think, yeah, I,  

Lynn Michalopoulos: I'm hopeful for it at, you know, and thinking about time, like even that we're currently doing a project looking at, you know, with climate change and mental health among truckers and other mobile populations, and I feel like it's. 

Gracious, you've been running around for months and months and months, like trying to get the, just getting the approvals. And so it takes, it does take time. But that's the kind of the, it's the hard balance between research and actually actual implementation. And, and how do you make programs like sustainable? 

Yeah.  

Conclusion and Final Thoughts 

Lynn Michalopoulos: [00:26:00] As we're kind of winding up, I wanna just hear from each of you, kind of your hopes for, what this could look like in the future. And how you would like to be. Hopefully you, you would like to be involved, but Sabeen, you wanna get us started?  

Sabine: Sure. Um, I love what gracious just said. I, I think it's, it's amazing that we were able to take this to, uh, the population. 

I think that was one of the things that drew me to it most. That we were making something, um, easy to access for a hard to reach population. Um, that's, you know, such a social work principle and, thank you for tying in social work. Yes. Services equitable. Um, so I would love to see this take into other parts of Zambia, of Africa, of, of just the world because truck drivers around the world, I, they deal with this. 

Um, there's a, I'm from Pakistan originally, and they're, the migrant populations have similar issues, [00:27:00] so. I think it would be amazing to take this to other places. And it's an easy, it's an easy to access intervention. It's over the phone. Everyone has a phone now. Everyone has WhatsApp, right? Um, and so it would be amazing to keep doing this. 

I would love to be a part of it in any capacity. And and maybe make like, reiterations almost to see what we could add, um, if it's possible. And if. But right now it stands at a, like a good length and that's, that's what we wanted to make it succinct and easy and and to sustain the attention of the population. 

But yeah, I would love to be part of.  

Lynn Michalopoulos: Awesome. Thank you. Well, I would love for you to be so, uh, gracious.  

Gracious : Yeah. I think my answer is similar to that of Sabeen. I think I would also like to be a part of it in any way, and I think what I wish to see or hope to see is it scaling up. Like scaling up to other countries. 

It'd be good to, it'd be interesting to see because truckers are always moving from one country to [00:28:00] the other and, and they like to be interesting to see like a study in different countries just to see what we get off that. Mm-hmm. And yeah, and now we have like more information, we have a bit of ways we can navigate about it. 

Uh, navigate recruitment and the like. So it would be interesting to see. What really happens and yeah, I think it's a good study. We need to advocate for it to be scaled up and yeah, just need more.  

Lynn Michalopoulos: Yeah,  

Gracious : yeah. Yeah.  

Lynn Michalopoulos: I agree. Munsaka, you take us home.  

Munsaka: Yes. Thank you. And now that we, we know how to handle these challenges, it is imperative to say. 

Can it spread throughout Zambia, even even the city over and to the, all the countries, like the way the, the rest of my colleagues have already on alluded, let us have that. Then when we have that, of course the, the limit is, maybe it's financial, but at the end of the day, the people that we are [00:29:00] dealing with, for example, in the, the drivers. 

It was just limited, like there were the past one, it was just limited to the Zambians, but you should know that. You should also appreciate to say, uh, Zambians, they don't work in isolation. No. There are other drivers that are coming from different areas that had actually an interest on the same. Like for example, in there are few times when they sit, they analyze. 

No, I'm trying to answer, I'm trying to go through this app, what is on, on, on my phone. So others from different countries, they're also interested to see what is going on there. Only, they're not privileged to me. It would better, they spread. I mean they, it is scaled like the way Gracious has said. Why? Because the root the road. 

That a Zambian driver uses is the same route that actually a Malawian or a South African use. Okay. The borders that [00:30:00] we cross over as Zambians, it's the same borders actually, the Botswanan people come to cross over the communities that they, they, they, they mingle with. In South Africa, are they by the South Africans are the same ones that the Zambian truckers mingle with. 

So it'll be very good to say, let's spread this so that each and everyone is able to, to understand each, and everyone is able to be sensitized. Like the way Gracious says. That actually is part of position strategy. Yeah. When you look at the way when I joined, actually every year, I think we have to experience more than eh 20 drivers dying while driving. 

But I tell you that actually, eh, with that introduction as of last year, we had only one who died. So meaning that actually others, they're getting, they're appreciating, by the way, this [00:31:00] year, none has died on the on the wheels. No. So these people, there's what we call a white line. A white line in this transport sector, actually, or rather in the transport sector. 

It simply means that actually each and every driver should have the information, if the information, something happens in Kasu. 

When something happens there, you find that within a span of, uh, time of 2, 3, 4 minutes. Hmm. Someone in ULA or children would have that information. 

Mm-hmm. So this is the information that we want. Actually each and everyone should have this. And what is take home? The take home is that let's scale up this program if possible. Let's, uh, let's scale it up. I repeat, let us scale it unto others. 'cause now it'll not be very difficult to reach out like the way Gracious has said that actually the way, the only way and fastest way [00:32:00] to catch the drivers, it is through the same app. 

Because at times in, in, in, in the trucking companies, you find that there's that bureaucrats one and two. At times they'll say, no, the drivers are not there. You should do a wait for them to come. But when you say, let's spread it through WhatsApp, because everyone, like Sabeen said, everyone has a smartphone now. 

Right. So it'll, it'll go viral actually. And that is our interest, that actually this thing, this program goes viral and everyone will have the information on the preventive measures. Even others, those who have the fear of the unknown to go for testing on HIV, they'll be able to do that. Why? Because they've been there, they've been taught and they've been given what they've, we've dispelled the myths That surrounds the HIV and aids. I think this is my take.  

Yeah. Thank you. Well, thank [00:33:00] you, each of you for. The time that you've taken. Thank you for your involvement in this project and this work. It's, I love working with each of you and want to continue, we'll continue to work with, with each of you and we really appreciate you being on the podcast. 

And for those that are out there, if you're, if we talk about the importance of scaling up and research. So if you donate then maybe we could do more of this work. Thank you.  

Gracious : Thank you for having us and we also love working with you. Love working with you. 

You're  

Sabine: amazing.  

Lynn Michalopoulos: Thank you for listening to the Social Work Everywhere podcast. If you've been inspired by the stories and impact shared today, please consider supporting the University of Maryland School of Social Work. Your donation will help fund scholarships, research, innovative teaching, and community partnerships that really make a difference. 

David Robertson: Every gift matters. Visit [00:34:00] ssw.umaryland.edu/give To donate today, please choose other and specify Global. And to request more information about admissions to the University of Maryland School of Social Work, please visit ssw.umaryland.edu/msw. Thank you. Bye for now.